Let me tell you a story about a guy named Jed...
A long long time ago (pre-ANSI C), in a galaxy far far away I had worked for a company that had to develop internal "C" coding standards and "Jed" worked on one aspect of the standard while I worked on another. We would hold weekly meetings to reconcile our differences. In attendance, we had other professionals for simple sanity checking and to gain insights from different points of view.
Chris was one of our attendees and was a very experienced software veteran who had plenty of code in various satellite systems orbiting our planet today. By then, Chris was in upper management and graced us with his wisdom when he could.
Well during one of our weekly meetings, "Jed" and I got into a simple disagreement on a Rule about header files. We were at an impasse, so we waited for Chris to arrive and have him make the final decision: about five of us professional engineers were in the room.
When Chris arrived, he heard the arguments, and quickly announced that I was right. (Hence, Jed was wrong).
Well, Jed freaked out and wanted to take the guy outside and teach him a lesson! ... Jed was red-faced, quickly stood up, even took a step towards Chris, and said "Chris, lets just step outside and settle this! I am right and you don't know what you're talking about!" etc etc.
The other attendees and I were duly impressed over Jed's technique of handling technical disagreements. Especially with upper management.
Instead of Jed trying to learn that he *might* be wrong, Jed leaped into the confrontation method of getting his way. Bullies do this because they lack the brain-power to reason through a disagreement. It is a childish trait.
Children are at a huge disadvantage when arguing with "an adult" (or somebody who is much smarter than they are) and they will become very frustrated over their strong desire to assert themselves and their inability to win the mental sparring. They will get physical and/or verbally abusive. Some people out grow this, and some don't.
I think Jed showed his 'abilities' quite well. I find that this is true with so many people on so many subjects. I've seen this behavior many times over. I've seen it here on this forum.
When an "Original Poster", asks a question and people try to answer it (after much refinement of the OP's question) you get these side-bar posts where somebody will start attacking another poster's efforts. And I mean 'attack' and not augment or refine.
I don't have a problem with correcting or clarifying others, or even the occasional sprinkling of sarcasm, but when it is ALWAYS devolves into some vindictive vitriol between a brisling poster and the rest of 'us,' I wonder if it is out of ignorance, malice, or some twisted form of self-entertainment. All three of which are adolescent behaviors. (en.wikipedia.org/.../Adolescence)
Since the regular players here are detail oriented and thus they are savvy enough to know who I'm talking about, I don't think I have to name names.
He is critical enough to figure it out himself, so I would expect that the offender would read this and ask himself if he is demonstrating Ignorance, Malice, Entertainment, or is he being an adult and providing a constructive post before he does so.
And, I hope his "Mea Clupea" (en.wikipedia.org/.../Mea_culpa) will be a silent one, because I'm kind of tired of reading his Hostile Postings (HP).
</rant> --Cpt. Vince Foster 2nd Cannon Place Fort Marcy Park, VA
There are postings that are hostile and/or argumentative (I have part of the guilt here) however I, for one do not see the need to hide behind a monniker. I know I should just ignore the smoked sardine and the bratwurst but it is darn tough when they attack my abilities/professionalism. if they would move ther personal attacks to e-mail, this would be a much more peaceful place. comments like But - they won't study program design, they'll only read a 'C' book as a last resort, they learn by trying things to see if they appear to work, if they do - fine, job done. The attitude is so different than the one they take with hardware design, its weird.
So - you're not alone. But you won't be missed by those who have to pick up the pieces when you're gone. have no merit in the forum and should be relegated to e-mail I post under my REAL name and if anyone want to write me directly go to http://www.8052.com and use the e-mail gateway there.
Erik Malund
Vince, To me, the only criterion here is whether the "offending" posts are of value in terms of their informative content. Yes, some heated debated resulted in insults exchanged, but if that is how the untainted truth is brought to the surface, so be it! Indeed, it is sometimes more pleasant to be part of a relaxed academic discussion, but I think that the colourful figures in this forum add a lot to it beyond professional authority.
But it doesn't change the fact that in a full-out war, there will only be loosers.
Focusing posts on attacking other people is so very counter-productive. Just about every outsider will hate both sides for making trouble.
Tamir, After posting it, I was starting to think the same thing... it does provide some color (not colour, as only retards like yourself write it that way---get the ironic humor there?), to the forum. I just don't like wasting my time reading stupid things. I know it sounds odd since I write the long 'novelistic' posts. But when that person writes these lame barbs at you guys, while providing very little value to the discussion at hand, it takes its toll. I guess if *that* person had some worth-while nuggets of wisdom, I wouldn't have been irritated enough to make this thread. So, that gets most of you guys off the hook when taking jabs at each other.
I guess I just rewrote what you just posted... I could have just said "Agreed" but I have a hard time keeping things terse.
Oh, and Per, "Agreed"
--Cpt. Vince Foster 2nd Cannon Place Fort Marcy Park, VA
color (not colour, as only retards like yourself write it that way ---get the ironic humor there?)
Appreciate the "ironic humor" however you do (humourously) make all Brits retards
Thus when you have a flat in England, you better ask someone to get the spare tyre out of the boot or your face will achieve a red colour because nobody will understand you otherwise.
Erik
Oh, we will understand - and pity you...!
;-)
...you do (humorously) make all Brits retards... Correction erik... All those Brits did that themselves: I didn't make them become that way.
And thanks for the pity... I need it.
Well during one of our weekly meetings, "Jed" and I got into a simple disagreement on a Rule about header files.
Go on then - what was the disagreement?
Unfortunately some respondents habitually reply with posts which are rude, unhelpful, opinionated, inaccurate or even downright misleading. If I can correct some of this I will.
I'm amused by the mental picture you've developed of me but I will have to dissapoint you somewhat - you're well off the mark in most respects.
I've justified myself at length in the past - please search my posting history to learn more.
Tell me - do you think software should be treated as an engineering discipline? Do you think software writers should properly learn to use their tools? Would you expect them to be apparently proud of not doing so?
And, I hope his "Mea Clupea" (en.wikipedia.org/.../Mea_culpa) will be a silent one
If you're going to try chucking bits of Latin in for effect it's best try and spell them correctly.
Unfortunately some respondents habitually reply with posts which are rude, unhelpful, opinionated
Erik Malund (who do not hide who he is, because he is willing to stand by what he writes as opposed to some others)
Well there are a few interesting thing about people. First a person is always right in there own eyes. (this is always fun) Second a person is often blind to there own failings. (the contrapositive of the prior statement?)
This is where a saying comes from "my friend is my enemy and my enemy is my friend". Sometimes confrontational conversation allows one to see "opps that's not right is it". Hence "my enemy is my friend". However if we always say "yes", IE agree to be agreeable (smooth things over?), then "my friend is my enemy" comes into play, because our own failure, mistake or misguided choices aren't brought into light.
The problem comes in delivery and how receptive the person is to the feedback.
Without NEGATIVE feedback systems become unstable (oscillate) the same goes with people or at least that is my experience.
My 12 cents I guess.
Stephen
what was the disagreement?
It was a simple 'rule' ... I said "header files shall contain no executable code" He said otherwise. (He was also a MACRO freak too... I was the one who insisted that we needed coding standards because of his odd coding styles).
Engineering Discipline? Yes, it should. Codemonkeys knowing their tools? Yes, they should. Proud of ignorance? No, they shouldn't.
I'm glad you can correct some of the 'misleading' unhelpful, opinionated, etc, posts. Let me check on that 'rudeness' factor now... "chucking bits of Latin for effect..." I think it had its intended effect.
Misspelling occurs all of the time on forums, and most of us will excuse it. Some people will pick at it as if it will score them points for 'correctness.' Others will poke fun at it, without malice. But indeed, it was kind of you to point 'it' out.
Are you absolutely sure I misspelled it? Do your research, and get back to me. We wouldn't want our readers to think that you haven't done your homework before making a jab at my spelling in an attempt to "one-up" me on a 'spelling error.'
Since I noticed two different spellings, It was my assumption that the OP did know the correct spelling, which implies accidient or intention.
"Without NEGATIVE feedback systems become unstable (oscillate) the same goes with people or at least that is my experience."
One reason why I tell people that they should not request for email answers, is that email answers would remove the possibility of negative feedback. If I write a mail directly to someone, I can tell whatever lies and if the receiver isn't bright enough to catch it, it may cost them a lot of grief.
But the question is how negative feedback should be presented. It may be more "fun" to select a confrontational style, but it is almost always counterproductive.
It is also possible to formulate the feedback in a positive way. "Just remember that ...", "Have you thought about ...", "There is also a case where ..." Such an addendum doesn't try to force people into corners, and also invites more people to join in and in a positive way extend/correct.
"Second a person is often blind to there own failings."
My bigest failings - in my own eyes - is that I write too long posts, and that I have too short temper with people who aren't willing to spend any time on their own. This isn't helped by this forum that seems to be populated by a very large amount of trolls and fake posters. Feel free to add to the list of failings - unless I know about them, I can't do anything about them.
All spelling or grammatical errors intentionally or unintentionally added are (c) Per Westermark 2008.
"Unfortunately some respondents habitually reply with posts which are rude, unhelpful, opinionated"
As someone who listens to posts on this forum rather than one who normally posts, I see an interesting picture from the text of a few profligate posters.
There certainly are a few posters who undoubtedly have strong egos and there is at least one that appears to post in the manner of "I do it this way and it is the right way and any other way is wrong".
So what if one certain person "is willing to stand by what he writes as opposed to some others". That style alone cannot make the person right and nor does the fact that the same person makes frequent posts.
The style has the effect of making that person appear to be authoritative to some others - Oddly, it would appear to have this effect on fellow posters that clearly have equal and probably better knowledge.
Don't get me wrong, the person in question obviously has some experience and he does occasionally impart it in a sensible manner; but it frequently goes too far and ends up with personal views being expressed in a way that makes them sound factual.
I, for one, am glad that some people stand up to obviously biassed, misleading and incorrect responses.
Please do keep on posting the same long, elaborate, detailed, knowledgeable and enlightening posts!
Both 'brisling' vs 'bristling' and 'clupea' vs 'culpa' were non-accidents. I was going out of my way in not directly naming the poster.
I figured that the savvy regulars would see it as you did Per. And that this particular person would get it too, and silently take heed, or possibly admit fault (hence, mea culpa)... but I was hoping for both.
This way I would not be in a position to do what he often does, and start some flame-war. Uhm, about spelling I guess. Oh, the irony! (note the difference between humorous and bits of Latin... git it?)