First, I'm mostly an analog engineer just now getting into microcontroller design. I'll be using the XC167 and am have trouble finding external memory. I have 12MB of external memory area and am therefore looking for 12MB of memory. Ive been looking for synchronous DRAM but can only find 64MB and greater. Does anybody have recommendations for external memory?
1) you need static memory not DRAM 2) if you need 12Mbyte, I think you are in deep doo-doo Erik
Yeah I know 12M is an odd number but I thought maybe someone is making it. Why do I need SRAM? DRAM is cheaper.........
I am not talking about "simple" tasks, nothing could be farther from my mindset. I am talking about REAL time, not the friggin "real enough" time some think has a place in control apps. The processor group we talk about here are quite sloppy at many things and excellent at others. So called multitasking definitely is not in their area of excellence. If you need 12MB of code, you are either multitasking (bad choice of processor) or having such a mess that you are, indeed in big doo-doo. I know that you can MAKE these processors jump through hoops. That you can drive from NY to LA on a bicycle does not make it the right choice, whereas if you deliver small goods in NY a bicycle is an excellent choice. You evidently are of the school "I like this processor, I WILL use it and MAKE it do what I want". That is your choice, it definitely is not mine. Do not take this as me having anything against it, I will gladly use it if it is the right choice and 12MB makes that very unlikely, albeit remotely poissible. Thus I question the choice, and if you have a problem with me questioning it why do you even read a forum?. Do I state "I think, if this does not offend you, that there is an itty bitty cahnce that you may have chosen wrong, but that is just my opinion" or such wimpy s*** NO. Erik
You evidently are of the school "I like this processor, I WILL use it and MAKE it do what I want". Not at all, I have no idea if the XC167 processor is the right choice for their application and neither do you. We just don't have enough information to say. The arrogance of you making statements like "ONCE MORE if you need 12Mbyte, you have chosen the wrong processor" without knowing anything else about their system is getting very old. If you need 12MB of code, you are either multitasking (bad choice of processor) or having such a mess that you are, indeed in big doo-doo. Have you used this processor? Its interrupt controller makes priority based preemptive multitasking a breeze using the timer module. No kernel needed. This statement leads me to believe you know nothing about the capabilities of the processor. if you have a problem with me questioning it why do you even read a forum? I read this forum because I learn a lot from it. It's a shame that people like you have to second guess every design that does not fit the mold that you are used to. Questioning something is one thing, but constantly assuming that no one else can make a right choice unless it passes your litmus test is what I find annoying. I am done responding to this thread, if you cannot see my point by now it is pointless to continue. -Walt
I refer to my earlier post about managing software engineers... The original question was about memory ICs for a 16 bit controller? I recently used a 128kx32 SRAM from IDT(can be used as x16), you might check their catalog. I too have a hat that says hardware on it and I follow the general rule of laying out the PCB to provide all the memory the CPU can use and then populating during assembly as desired. That is unless the application specifically calls for less than the maximum( say rev3 going to production..) Good luck.
Not at all, I have no idea if the XC167 processor is the right choice for their application and neither do you. We just don't have enough information to say. The arrogance of you making statements like "ONCE MORE if you need 12Mbyte, you have chosen the wrong processor" without knowing anything else about their system is getting very old. If me questioning the wisdom of 12 MB with the amount of information provided is arrogant, then your statement it is wise is equally arrogant. You call it arrogance, I call it questioning the wisdom. If the OP not someone that think I may be wrong convince me that what I post does not match a given app I will gladly retract. If you read this thread, you will see that I constantly ask "how much code memory" and get no answer so, it could be that a board without code memory is being constructed and I will suspect so till the OP not some do-gooder convince me otherwise. Years ago, I posted things like "I want to make sure ... It could be ... I think" and in many cases the result was that at a later time the same poster posted "it does not work because" Thus I will much rather have you (who may know the uC vert well) get mad at me for being blunt that lead someone astray with vague posts. If you have a problem with me stating my opinions, I suggest you state your opinions on the subject of the thread rather than your opinion of me. Erik
"It's a shame that people like you have to second guess every design that does not fit the mold that you are used to. Questioning something is one thing, but constantly assuming that no one else can make a right choice unless it passes your litmus test is what I find annoying." I couldn't agree more with this. So Erik, what's the upper limit on RAM for this processor? What's the maximum latency before 'real time' becomes 'real enough time'?
So Erik, what's the upper limit on RAM for this processor? What's the maximum latency before 'real time' becomes 'real enough time'? 1) I think you get one thing wrong "real enough time" is worse than real time. It is an exprtession invented by the URTOS developers to excuse the sluggedness of their creations. The maximim latency is waht the developer know (s)he can live with, NOT what some URTOS developer has decided. 2) the upper limit for any processor is "what you need" Now to answer what you really ask I question everything that is not "typical" unless it is qualified. Not becuase it does not "fit my mold" but because - as seen in the C to asm thread where you had to question an excellent suggestion from Andy - that nobody knows what the app is when the OP does not state so. Thus if it is "unusual" and no reason is given I try to provoke an answer. Due to your cuddeling no answer has yet come forth from the OP in this thread. I find it wrong to let someone trundle along and make a board with 12M of RAM if all they need is a few hundered k. Maybe it is your philosophy that if someone want to commit suicide you should give them a gun, that is not mine. Erik
"I think you get one thing wrong "real enough time" is worse than real time." No. I asked you what you think the maximum latency is before 'real time' becomes what you call 'real enough time'. In other words, how slow does it have to be, in your opinion, before it is no longer real time. "The maximim latency is waht the developer know (s)he can live with" And there you are - it depends on the application. "the upper limit for any processor is "what you need"" I'm glad you can see that - it it 'what you need' rather that 'what Erik thinks it should be'. "Thus if it is "unusual" and no reason is given I try to provoke an answer." No you don't - you just state that the poster is wrong. Take a look at what you said in this thread: "if you need 12Mbyte, I think you are in deep doo-doo" Without knowing anything about the application you've just stated that 12Mb of RAM is wrong. "Due to your cuddeling no answer has yet come forth from the OP in this thread." I've no idea what 'cuddeling' is, and I'm unable to see how you can know that whatever it is has affected whether the OP chooses to answer your question. "I find it wrong to let someone trundle along and make a board with 12M of RAM if all they need is a few hundered k. Maybe it is your philosophy that if someone want to commit suicide you should give them a gun, that is not mine." The guy has stated that 12Mb of memory is what he's been told to provide. Why do you insist on badgering him to justify this? The reason is that you just assume, as usual, that (quoting Walt) if things don't pass your personal litmus test they must be wrong.
"Thus if it is "unusual" and no reason is given I try to provoke an answer." No you don't - you just state that the poster is wrong. If you have a better way to provoke an answer, I would like to know it. The guy has stated that 12Mb of memory is what he's been told to provide If "I have 12MB of external memory area" is being "told to provide", then the english language has changed. "Due to your cuddeling no answer has yet come forth from the OP in this thread." I've no idea what 'cuddeling' is, and I'm unable to see how you can know that whatever it is has affected whether the OP chooses to answer your question. It sure has, his "answer" is "You guys are hilarious......LOL" instead of "I need 12 M because". re "cuddeling": when I try to make the OP state a why, you always come in and post "there is no reason to tell us why, we will give help you go anywhere you want without any concern for whether it is the right path. Again, If someone ask for a gun, I check for a potential suicide, you provide the gun. You do your thing, I do mine but PLEASE stay away from comments about my persona, if you have something techincal to add, by all means do. Erik To all: I am sorry that when Stefan attacked my person, I responded the same way, I should not have done that.
"If you have a better way to provoke an answer, I would like to know it." You could try the normal method - asking a polite question? "If "I have 12MB of external memory area" is being "told to provide", then the english language has changed." If you were to read his other posts all would be revealed: "I am a Hardware Engineer being given requirements by software as far as how much memory." "It sure has, his "answer" is "You guys are hilarious......LOL" instead of "I need 12 M because"." You'll notice, however, that he made that comment before I entered into this thread. Do you not realise it's a reaction to *your* badgering? "re "cuddeling": when I try to make the OP state a why, you always come in and post "there is no reason to tell us why, we will give help you go anywhere you want without any concern for whether it is the right path." No, I'm just trying to achieve some sort of balance where posters are given some credit for having a clue, and opinions stated as though they were facts are not allowed to overwhelm the forum. You still haven't explained what 'cuddeling' means. "if you have something techincal to add, by all means do" It's pointless - you'll defend an untenable position for a while, then you simply stop responding to points that you've been picked up on. " I am sorry that when Stefan attacked my person, I responded the same way, I should not have done that." I didn't notice a personal attack?
It's pointless - you'll defend an untenable position for a while, then you simply stop responding to points that you've been picked up on. " I am sorry that when Stefan attacked my person, I responded the same way, I should not have done that." I didn't notice a personal attack? "It's pointless - you'll ....", If the above is not a "personal attack" pray tell what it is, I see nothing related to a technical problem. Anyhow I will say no more since answering any of the above would be answering "comments on the person rather than the technical issue" with "comments on the person rather than the technical issue" which has no place in a technical forum. As to the original issue, I still doubt that 12M is the right size, but that got lost in the "comments on the person rather than the technical issue" Erik
Thanks William, I'll check it out..........That's all I was looking for.........And yes, I have been asked to provide a design for the maximum amount of memory in the case that we need it. Right now software is only using 2M. Mike
well, it seems that your request for SRAM manufacturers got lost in the fray, ISSI has up to 512k*16 see http://www.issi.com/index.html >product search >sram >asynch. You will need an awful lot of chips to populate 12M with 512k chips, but that may be what you have to do. Do remember that the code in this type of application "typically" reside in flash, there you can get much more on a chip for less money (I use SST, they have a 1000 times faster erase than most). Ask those programmers, that evidently do not tell you much, how they want the memory to be divided RAM/Flash Erik
Yeah I'm starting to get a headache over this much memory.......Apparently the software engineer was told he may need upto 2MB just for fonts for multiple languages (Korean type fonts?). He wants all of it there for development though. Now I have a question based on your experience using this processor. Basically I'm not far enough along to know how fast you can actually access memory, i.e. how many instruction cycles? Is fast sram (10ns) much faster than standard sram with a 70ns response time? The XC167 is only 40Mhz. I know the memory itself is much faster, but is there really a big difference in this application? Im considering using Psuedo SRAM.......I know you have an opinion, dont be shy......LOL
Thanks........that 512kb x 16 is fast too.........this helps
""It's pointless - you'll defend an untenable position for a while, then you simply stop responding to points that you've been picked up on.", If the above is not a "personal attack" pray tell what it is, I see nothing related to a technical problem." How you can misconstrue that as a personal attack is beyond me. It was what has turned out to be a perfectly accurate prediction of your response based on your posting history. The fact that it contained no technical content does *not* make it a personal attack. What it does express, however, is the futility of attempting to engage you in a technical discussion due to your refusal to even consider the possibility that your 'one size fits all' opinions are not universal truths. "As to the original issue, I still doubt that 12M is the right size" As usual, based on exactly zero knowledge of the application. "but that got lost in the "comments on the person rather than the technical issue" I don't know anything about your 'person' other than what you write on this forum. Anything you post here is open to debate - that's what a forum is for. If you post your baseless opinions as facts you'd better expect me to disagree with them. If that hurts your feelings, well, too bad.
As usual, based on exactly zero knowledge of the application. 1) absolutely correct at that time I had "exactly zero knowledge of the application", However a board with 24 memory chips is "rather unique" isn't it?. 2) your criticism of my statement "it is not so" is based on you having "exactly zero knowledge of the application" so where is the difference in the qualification of the post. 3) now see in other postings what is coming out of the fact that my "baseless opinions as facts" brought out a more complete description of the app so that "exactly zero knowledge of the application" is no longer true. This enabled me to give the OP some "real" help. If you post your baseless opinions as facts you'd better expect me to disagree with them. If that hurts your feelings, well, too bad. I have no problem with you disagreening with what I say, but I have a problem with you commenting on how I say it. I just ask that you disagree with the content, not the verbage. I realize that you think that if someone want to put 12Mbyte SRAM (24 memory chips) on a board that is "normal". That is fine, but is it not very interesting that while you have been busy arguing my verbage, I, not you, ended up posting solutions for the OP. No feelings are hurt, just PLEASE: disagree all you want with the content of my posts, my verbage is mine and if it offends you tough!. Erik
"However a board with 24 memory chips is "rather unique" isn't it?." In your sphere of experience, maybe. In other applications maybe not. "your criticism of my statement "it is not so" is based on you having "exactly zero knowledge of the application" so where is the difference in the qualification of the post." It's simple. Based on zero knowledge you say "It is wrong", I say "It may be right, it may be wrong". "now see in other postings what is coming out of the fact that my "baseless opinions as facts" brought out a more complete description of the app so that "exactly zero knowledge of the application" is no longer true. This enabled me to give the OP some "real" help." It took so long, I suspect, because you never actually asked the OP for a description of his application. Go on, take a look back through the thread. All you did was churn out your usual ignorant barrage of "you're wrong! you're wrong!". "I have no problem with you disagreening with what I say, but I have a problem with you commenting on how I say it. I just ask that you disagree with the content, not the verbage." Disagreeing with the content is exactly what I have been doing. However, I do have a problem with the way you say things as well. There is a certain expectation in a professional forum that you try to behave in a civilised fashion. Take a look at this quote from another current thread: "If someone were to pay me to look at the above code, I would say "no thanks". So, I have absolutely no intention of even glancing at unformatted code for free." What a nasty and aggressive way of pointing out that the poster's code wasn't formatted to your liking! " I realize that you think that if someone want to put 12Mbyte SRAM (24 memory chips) on a board that is "normal"." Yet again you seem to be incapable of grasping my simple point. I am not suggesting that any particular quantity of memory chips is 'normal', I am saying that different applications require different quantities of memory chips. There is no 'normal', and there is certainly no arbitrary limit set by you. "That is fine, but is it not very interesting that while you have been busy arguing my verbage, I, not you, ended up posting solutions for the OP." Solutions? "No feelings are hurt, just PLEASE: disagree all you want with the content of my posts," Thanks for your permission. " my verbage is mine and if it offends you tough!." Two other regular posters have commented on your 'verbage' and general attitude in recent threads. If this doesn't make you think about your behaviour then your level of ignorance and arrogance is quite extraordinary.
Did you get all your fuzzy feelings out, I hope so. There is absolutely no technical merit to your post above. I do not deal in feelings, if that is what you want to discuss, I suggest you find a forum on that subject. THE END unless you, as before, state that my attempt of terminating this useless discussion is "then you simply stop responding to points that you've been picked up on"
"Did you get all your fuzzy feelings out, I hope so." What are 'fuzzy feelings'? Are they the same as the yet unexplained 'cuddeling'? "There is absolutely no technical merit to your post above." There is technical merit in my post - I point out yet again that your sweeping statements about what is acceptable in a design are incorrect. This is of benefit to anyone who may be misled by those statements. "I do not deal in feelings" Being an engineer does not exempt you from being part of the human race. It does not give you the right to behave in a way that others find offensive. "if that is what you want to discuss, I suggest you find a forum on that subject" I have no interest in discussing feelings. I have merely pointed out that I am not alone in finding your attitude at best rude and at worst ignorant. "THE END unless you, as before, state that my attempt of terminating this useless discussion is "then you simply stop responding to points that you've been picked up on"" Well, that's exactly what you've done. As predicted.
i stated: "THE END unless you, as before, state that my attempt of terminating this useless discussion is "then you simply stop responding to points that you've been picked up on" Ok, you could not resist Well, that's exactly what you've done. As predicted. NO, NO, NO, NO, and NO again. I am trying to end this useless discussion, but it seems impossible to get you off your high moralistic horse and down to the real life - life is tough, not sweet and cuddling. There is technical merit in my post - I point out yet again that your sweeping statements about what is acceptable in a design are incorrect. Where do you find "not acceptable" in my post? "I think you are in deep doo-doo" does not say "not acceptable" it says "THINK". Again, this is not what I "find acceptable" it is what I see need clarification. Being an engineer does not exempt you from being part of the human race. It does not give you the right to behave in a way that others find offensive. If you would PLEASE have a look, you will see that the two "offensive" threads you refer to both have led to clarification followed by a reply. There are many threads where it took a lot of posts to get to the nitty gritty - but you would like the "language", here it took only a few posts (not counting your criticisms which have nothing to do with it) - but you have a problem with the "language". I also find it interesting that, as far as I can recall there has never been an OP that found my post "offensive". That it does not take much to get you to feel offended on the behalf of others, is another story. Erik ONCE MORE THE END unless you, as before, state that my attempt of terminating this useless discussion is "then you simply stop responding to points that you've been picked up on"
"I am trying to end this useless discussion" If you want to end the discussion, feel free to leave it. I'm quite happy to continue. "Where do you find "not acceptable" in my post? "I think you are in deep doo-doo" does not say "not acceptable" it says "THINK"." You also said: "ONCE MORE if you need 12Mbyte, you have chosen the wrong processor" Which would give me the impression that you think 12MB is 'not acceptable', as it would anyone else reading it. "If you would PLEASE have a look, you will see that the two "offensive" threads you refer to both have led to clarification followed by a reply." I quoted you from one thread where you you were particularly rude. There is no clarification or reply in that thread, nor an apology. "There are many threads where it took a lot of posts to get to the nitty gritty - but you would like the "language", here it took only a few posts (not counting your criticisms which have nothing to do with it) - but you have a problem with the "language"." I have more of a problem with the technical content of your posts in this thread than with your language. I have repeatedly explained this problem to you, as has Walt, but you refuse to bend. Instead you focus on complaining that I shouldn't comment on your 'person', 'verbage' or 'language'. "I also find it interesting that, as far as I can recall there has never been an OP that found my post "offensive". That it does not take much to get you to feel offended on the behalf of others, is another story." You seem to be ruder to newbies than to regular posters. I suspect the newbies aren't sure how to react and therefore keep quiet. I'm not offended in the least, but I do feel sorry for those who find themselves on the receiving end of your attitude. "ONCE MORE THE END" How many more times do you plan to say that? "unless you, as before, state that my attempt of terminating this useless discussion is "then you simply stop responding to points that you've been picked up on"" Oops! There you go again... This discussion wouldn't be useless if you'd actually try and understand it.
There is no clarification or reply in that thread, Oh yes, ther is an indented code (as I requested) and a reply (from me) about a problem. "ONCE MORE THE END" How many more times do you plan to say that? Till you stop. This discussion wouldn't be useless if you'd actually try and understand it. I understand it perfectly. As I do not express the same opinion as you, but a dfifferent one, you get upset. Erik
"Oh yes, ther is an indented code (as I requested) and a reply (from me) about a problem." And a whole lot more unjustified criticism stemming from the fact that you were wrong. "Till you stop." How utterly childish. If you want to continue with the discussion please do so, but these comments devoid of content intended to ensure that you have the last word are pathetic. "I understand it perfectly." No, you haven't got there yet. "As I do not express the same opinion as you, but a dfifferent one, you get upset." You present your opinions as facts. They are not. This is the root of the problem that you refuse to, or cannot, understand.
Erik, Stefan, can you please both calm down, or at least continue this by now quite pointless discussion in private? Seriously, looking at the last half-dozen or so posts of yours here reminds me of nothing if not this old wisecrack: A: "Why do you always have to have the last word?" B: "But how am I supposed to know you don't want to say something anymore?"
Erik, Stefan, can you please both calm down, or at least continue this by now quite pointless discussion in private? Hans-Bernhard, I gladly will. Let Stefans last post stand as it is repeating a lot of things I already have refuted. Erik
I'm Laughing my f***ing ass off.............You guys are Hilarious!
Mike, AFAIK the XC has no contiguous 12MB memory area inside that 16MB space. You will find (nearly) 12MB starting from 0x10000 if you do not use the TwinCAN.
Mike, in the hope we can discuss technical issues without interference some questions" 1) has "the programmer" used this group of chips before ? 2) is "the programmer aware of the board size including 24 memory chips ? 3) is there not a limit to the size of the board ? 4) has "the programmer" stated the size of flash and RAM as separate numbers. ? Erik
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